Perdition
Yesterday I had interesting discussion with one gentleman from UK living in Asia for 18 years. In fact we discussed less about Asia but about how the world degrades. In his opinion his student times were terrible. Neo-nazis, communists, everyone expecting 3rd World War and so on, however today, with maybe more stable world the danger comes from low level of society. I fully agree on this matter and I can spot things how we degrade. It is enough to look at language that youngsters use. People stopped paying attention to grammar, correct spelling or even basic things like capitalization within sentences. I am not any good writer but at least I try to pay attention to basics. Other thing is handwriting. When I was young we were pushed by teachers to write in our notebooks with correct hand writing. So that we could use the notes and others could read them. Today youngsters (mostly) write like chickens with their legs. Even I have figured out change in my handwriting. To make sure that everyone can read what I am writing (especially considering Asians, when the order of strokes matters - for example unique ways to write digits - everyone writes exactly same) I have changed my writing to use only capital letters. In fact I use now big and small capital letters because many times I had to explain what I wrote by hand not because I write unreadable but because people read it wrong.
Also language becomes more and more simplified. It probably comes from simplified communication over phone messaging and internet messaging. Of course the biggest impact on language for sure is caused by people who just gave up on reading books. If I hear from someone "Why you want to waste your time reading this novel if you can just get DVD?" I really do not know how to respond to that person. Also movie industry itself creates movies that popularize simple street (mostly vulgar) language. If we compare movies even from 40 years ago, we can see how movies language changed. Maybe the movies back then were not so realistic, rich dialogs, criminals speaking like professors but in fact those movies played a big part in education of society by creating certain manners and influencing language.
Although... it seems there is no hope...
Grandpa Duddie
Aren't you supposed to wait 30 more years before you start talking like that ? 8)
This is a typical old-man rant.. how things aren't like they used to be anymore, how music and TV gets more violent, how people become stupid because of technology, etc etc...
Sure there are some drawbacks.. for example, Japanese tend to forget how to write Kanji because they mostly do it on the PC.. but I think it's well worth using computers to communicate instead of holding onto handwriting. You lose the handwriting skills but you get to read and write a lot more.
To me perhaps even writing on the keyboard is lame.. and possibly using the language we use is lame, because it's very ambiguous. I'm definitely open to very big revolutions to come 1000 years from now.
Forget the "young punks".. those are very natural, totally predictable events. Every generation complaints about the next.
hhmm mr duddie are you
hhmm mr duddie are you talking about english speaking people or the whole world in general?
I am talking about whole
I am talking about whole world in general.
Hmm ...
... I should've read your comments before I posted mine. 8P Of course, you know I'm going to disagree with the idea of "using computers to communicate instead of holding on to handwriting". I think there are so many things intrinsically important in regards to handwriting that aids education at a basic level. A simple thing like hand writing can teach a child some fundamental skills as patience, learning to concentrate, and basic eye-hand coordination. Plus, a keyboard (or some bizzare input interface) will not always be available. I can go on and on about this.
I wish we would both be alive 1,000 years from now ... actually ... I don't know if I want to live *that* long ... body won't hold out ... but I can assure you that 1,000 years from now people will still be writing things by hand using some form of "ink" and "paper" ...
If possibly using language is lame, how then should people communicate? Even if everyone spoke the exact same language, there will always still be ambiguities. As you know, how English is used varies from country-to-country ... and I have heard about cases where English changes based on the culture of the country/area in which is spoken.
I think that communication between human beings will always be an ambiguous thing ... not because of language, but because of how human beings are ... or human nature. At times people will be ambiguous simply because they are afraid to truly express their ideas because they are afraid of being rejected by their peers, are hiding something, or simply don't want to communicate what's really going on in their mind ... or (on a more deeper level) ... they don't really know how to communicate (with words) how they feel. The Japanese language is really a great example of ambiguity ... and (it seems) that it developed the way it did based on how the culture has been for the last several thousand years.
The world and society will and has always changed, but contextually, there's nothing really new. It's mostly the same social problems, social issues that have occurred in the past, but with a different "global setting", different technology, and different challenges.
I don't think we really need
I don't think we really need handwriting.
We used to need to know how to hunt, how to harvest, how to defend ourselves, but we don't need that anymore (at least in this part of the World !).
As a kid I liked guns, martial arts, swords.. all that action coming from movies. As an adult I realized that I needed my brain much more.
Now, the really useful things I do is when I sit in front of a computer. I can do things without a computer, but those aren't as relevant.. because of the physical limitations.
My parents like the idea that we can chat everyday with a messenger.. I'm sure they would appreciate a hand-written letter, but honestly, that's not enough.. much better an email and a few pictures. My parents love the Internet and they made an effort to learn to type on the keyboard, because it's so much more useful... it's the previous generations that need to advance, not us that need to get stuck in the past.
About ambiguous communication.. that's because there isn't nearly enough math in out heads. We are scared and bored by rules.. women especially.. and that explains why most women aren't that successful. Maybe that's how society forces them, maybe the fact of having to bear children.. but still, on average, those that hate logic are also those that aren't so advanced.
How's that for a sexist remark ;)
Putting aside your sexists
Putting aside your sexists remarks you chauvinistic pig.... I want to comment on handwriting. A correct handwriting teaches people to pay attention to how they make notes to make it correct, organized and in fact it is character forming part of education.
Maybe you are simply not aware how nowadays people write...
Actually my note taking
Actually my note taking ability has dramatically improved (from 0 to "not 0" 8) ever since I started using Wikis.
For notes TiddlyWiki is great, and the next release is going to sync nicely with MediaWiki.. supposedly.
Pen and paper suck.. because once you write things, you can't easily change them !
Women and men
Actually I think that the big difference between men and women brain operation is really caused by our difference. With exceptions men are more logic, simple minded, focused on matter but not detail. While women are opposite. It is hard to have women being excellent engineers but I am happily having them doing project management. Same for office work. I would never ever let a man run the office for all this administration and accounting stuff. Man would create a huge mess. But yet, there are exceptions...
It even shows in learning languages. It is much harder for a man to learn languages than for women.
Programmers also need to be
Programmers also need to be very focused on details !! That requires so much focus that most women bail out.
Women are simply less attached to reality.
Of course this is a big generalization 8)
Maybe they're just smarter than us? 8P
For some reason, I had this furturisitc image of your brain (and eyeballs) in a giant jar connected to a machine. 8P Obviously using the Internet has some really practical benefits for today's world. It's here to stay ... at least until it gets to the point where governments will figure out how to regulate it to death.
Handwriting will still be a necessity though in the future ... you can't avoid it ... unless you don't have hands to write with! 8P I think handwriting (or rather writing specifically) is a fundamentally different way for human beings to express their ideas than say from hunting or even war ... perhaps wars in the future will be like StarCraft! (I hope not!) If handwriting goes away, so will painting and artwork ... but I don't see that happening either ...
...why most women aren't that successful...
I guess you haven't been around or known any successful women ... I have ... and I think that (fundamentally) women are likely to be more successful than men if they're given the chance and are in the proper environment. Women's "lack of success" generally falls on to things like being in societies where educating women is forbidden (for whatever reasons) or limiting their avenues for opportunity.
The fact that women have the ability to bear and raise children seems to indicate to me that they're able to process more complicated information than guys. Guys tend to need things to be spelled out to them in very obvious ways, women seem to have this "extra sensory" ability to be able to process and perceive information that guys would consider "not important".
My only guess is that the reason why women are "bored" with rules (I don't they're scared) is because it's (fundamentally) not important to them. I have known some of the women I know are much better than their male counterparts if they have deep interest in the topic (I'm talking about technical stuff!) ... and they tend to do a better job than the guys.
Art isn't going away but
Art isn't going away but most products are built by machines. Hand made things are cool, but they aren't efficient.
Writing Kanji characters is one official Japanese art, but most people's calligraphy isn't that good.. because most people are practical about it. Using computers is even more practical 8)
Drawing comics is still largely a hand made job, but that has also been computerized as much as possible. Coloring and animation for example, are just so heavy to do by hand.
About successful women. Success can mean anything. Let's assume that we mean people that stand out somehow. I'm sure there are many successful women, but the great majority just wants an easy family life..
The truth is that women on average tend to be weaker and aim lower in general. This is a shame, but it can't be helped. I consider my mother a successful woman and she herself acknowledges that in many cases women just "have no balls".
You try to be a cute girl, with a bunch of men that just want to keep you around as a sexy maid rather than having to work your ass off.. then you tell me if you are going to be "successful" or just give up and grab a man and get married until you are young and cute.
Sad but true..
Choose the higher road ...
Well, among the successful women I know are: a court judge, college professors, doctors, a vice president of very large (and well known) corporation, and company executives. I'm not making any of this up. I think the majority of people (men and women) out there want an easy life and hence the level of mediocrity we see at times (depending on the society). Why read a book when you can watch TV or why do something new, when you can sit around and wait for someone else to do it for you? 8P
I think the fact that it's easier for a woman to be a sexy maid than work hard says more about how guys treat women, than whether a women is lazy or not. Sure there are those ladies out there that would rather flaunt their sexuality and manipulate there way through life ... that's their choice. But I know women who have worked hard, been successful at it, have done well and also have families.
Maybe things would be better (for everyone) if most of the guys started treating women with a bit more sincere respect and affection and stopped doing stupid things like prohibiting women from obtaining education, or relegating some very intelligent lady to office lady work like pouring tea for fat and lazy guys. 8P All I can say is that you should be glad you're not a woman ... chances are you wouldn't be doing what you're doing for a living now and if you tried, you'd run into various kinds of constant opposition.
The thing we have to remember is that every woman out there is somebody's daughter ... and if I do ever have children, I sure will be encouraging my daughter to aim high and do her best. It would be sad thing if (as her father) I couldn't make some kind of impact on her life to make her feel that she's has more ability than being a "sexy maid" or being "young and cute". 8P
I'm sorry but you talk like
I'm sorry but you talk like someone that is "pure". You need more hard on experience.
Most women just want an easy life. They don't care about future, technology, they just want to get married, make kids, and that's it.
Japanese women will even be glad to stop having sex after marriage: we got the kids, no more need to break a sweat.
And nobody is really preventing them from getting an education ! The problem is that those that get one end up studying stuff like psychology or social sciences.. stuff good for "relationships" not for tangible advancements in human knowledge.
We must be living in a parallel universes...
... so I guess we know women who have different motivations. 8P In general, I know very few women who are interested in technology at least at the level we are. As far as caring about the future, I don't think that most people (not just women) are really too concerned about the future beyond making sure they have a roof over their heads and can live a comfortable life.
Japanese women will even be glad to stop having sex after marriage: we got the kids, no more need to break a sweat.
I thought we are talking about women in general? 8P Anyway, this is a purely cultural thing ... though I'll throw my gaijin opinion that this is really more a result of the changes the country has gone through in the recent 40-50 years. The general pattern I've observed in a typical Japanese marriage is:
1. Couple gets married.
2. Couple produces children.
3. Husband moves "residence" to the office for the next 20-30 years (or until retirement); hangs out with the boyz (and those women who act cute) during this period
4. Wife is left to take care of everything else at home (including children, if any).
5. If parents are fortunate, children won't go psychologically crazy and start doing bizzare things like this.
6. After the husband retires and moves back home, divorce is likely.
Of course, this isn't rampant everywhere, but it's not such a rare thing. I also heard that many women here expect their husbands to have some woman on the side, so it's not really surprising to hear that once they've had children, no more sex for their husbands ... maybe they're just wise and don't want to catch anything that their husbands might bring home? 8P
In terms of them not getting an education ... well, (again) you have to look at the society here ... it really doesn't encourage women to go into high tech work. What's the point in getting some advanced degree when you'll end up serving tea to some fat and lazy guys in your company? I suppose those smarter Japanese ladies just go into business for themselves or leave the country for opportunities elsewhere the planet.
Staying within the realm of Asia, India has some seriously high-tech women ... *and* they're good at what they do (they're also amongst the group of women I mentioned in my last message); women from India are quite motivated too ... possibly more than both you and I ... I also have a friend in China who is running her own business and is doing well for herself ... so (again) a women's ambitions tend to be partially based on what culture they are in. There are women in the Middle Eastern countries who want to get an education and learn many things, but the men (leadership) in those countries prohibit women from getting an education. One could say "it's an example of religious oppression", but at the end of the day it's the men who are the guardians of those religions.
Here's some women who've moved things forward for humanity:
Marie Curie
Ada Lovelace
Maud Menten
Emmy Noether
Since I'm not too familiar (yet) with Japanese history, I don't know of the women in Japan who may have contributed to the advancement of human knowledge. You might wonder why I'm so "pro-woman" ... The truth of the matter is that at every significant step in my education, there have been more women who pushed me to go further, work harder, and do better than men.
I disagree 8) You bring a
I disagree 8)
You bring a list of 4 women that changed the world. But when talking in general it's the ratio that counts: what's the ratio of men that changed the world vs women ?
I don't mean to be sexist, just honest.
Same goes with the BBC article and the news about the Japanese crazy kid... how many divorces and crazy kids are around the world ?
Japan still has a very low criminality and divorce rate.
A rise in divorce rate does not mean that when the man retires divorce is likely ( rate of chage != rate ). In fact "Japan retains a markedly lower divorce rate, though it has increased in recent years." says Wikipedia.
Also in Japan is not just the men that put work first.. working women do that as well.. as per my recent complaints on Mixi ;)
Cultural Shift
He he he ... I'm not trying to change your mind. I know you've already made it up. I'm just saying that (from my observations) these days I don't see much difference between the level of ambition between men and women ... even with the ratios ... Historically it has been men who've changed things, but I don't believe that reflects anything negative on the women. The times and the culture of those periods were different. But when a woman did make an impact, it was known and was recorded in history. I think that if you were around "ambitious" women more, you're view and opinion would change a bit. You might not even like it since some of the women in this group refuse to placate men.
My hypothesis is that if men treated women differently, the ratios themselves may be different ... meaning that there would probably be more women who have contributed to change in the world than there are now. And when I say change, not necessarily technology, but in other areas as well. Saying that all (most women) want to do is get married and have kids is only looking at part of the picture. In addition to this, many of these men who have changed the world have had women in supportive roles which enabled them to have the time and ability to pursue those world changing things. So it's wrong to just flatly discredit women because they're not necessarily in the limelight ... or because they don't share the same interests that we guys share. Men and women are different and will never be the same. I believe those differences are meant to complement each other rather than drive a wedge between the sexes.
I never said that when a Japanese man retires, he's going to divorce; it's just a recent trend (along with the rash of reports of children killing their parents). The increase in the divorce rates (according to the news reports) is a direct result of men simply working all the time for years on end and the women not putting up with it any more since the laws here now allow women access to their husband's pension ... even if they divorce (which wasn't the case in the past). The whole point of all that was that (it seems) that in the past, Japanese women have even fewer options once they get married, but now that things are changing and giving them more options, there's a social shift going on.
Whether a woman will continue to work after they get married or have a child is a huge topic with a lot of women in Japan. Many that I know what to continue working after having children, but (currently) there aren't that many companies that support this kind of thing, and the government has been dragging it's feet in this area. Traditionally it seems that here in Japan, once a woman gets married (even though she has been working), she quits her job and becomes a full-time housewife. If you really want to find out what's going on in any Japanese woman's head, if she's single ask her would she like to continue working after she gets married and has children. For those that are married and are full-time housewives, ask them if they wish they could still be working. You'll be surprised the depth of answers and dialogue you'll have.
I think women putting work first is a result of men having done that for such a long time while the women have been screwed over in various ways by the very same men. It's also what has caused the recent trend here where women are not bothering with marriage. Why give up on your dreams and end up in "prison" by getting married? It's better to just work hard, make tons of money, and create a chance to be able to have a say in one's future. I expect this trend to continue ... which means that you'll probably write more complaints on Mixi ... ;)
I could wait 30 years...
... but I recognize that I have more in common with people 35 years older than me than with people 10 years younger than me. Which means that the world within recent years changed a lot. Mobile phones, internet, technology.
Welcome ...
... to the Post-Modern Age! You gotta love the lack of real standards these days. Everything is relative ... and has no intrinsic meaning. When I say, "I think it's going to get worse", I'm really being optimistic ... seriously. 8P
I think a lot of it has to do with how the nature of society has been changing with the advent of technology ... and how rapidly it gets adopted without taking time to pause to examine the long term effects on society at large. One (simple) example is how many Japanese friends I know are forgetting how to read and write Kanji characters ... mainly due to the fact that many people use PCs or cell phones for their daily communication. I think even on a more global level, hand writing a real letter is becoming an ancient art form.
Maybe there's "hope" ... hope that (as individuals) we try to keep some kind of high standard (like reading a novel!) and try to encourage others to do the same. I think for most people, it'll seem like an odd thing (especially in this day and age), but it's a definite start.
But alas ... we live in a Post-Modern age. 8P
Every generation introduces something new
I am not really against changes in the world. I am not really going to say that new-generation things are bad. I am not going to say that we were listening to the music and now the music is a noise (actually hip-hop is not a music anyway :) ). What I am scared is that really people simplify the communication skill. That people cannot do things without computers and mobile phones anymore. Just try to arrange a meeting somewhere within a city with a group of people and see how many calls people will make/receive just to find a meeting point. It is scary.
You listen to Trance music
You listen to Trance music as well (don't pretend you don't now ! ;) ..and Trance is also this generation's music.
Keepin' it real
I can understand what you mean. I think that the technology is just making it easier not to communicate in a meaningful manner. Given how "fast" society is these days, it can be a hassle to take time and slow down and communicate with another person. That takes some real effort, and even "risk" in that the time spent in communication (or in the relationship) could end up being a potential waste of time ... so many folks are content to communicating on the surface, but are not willing to go any deeper than that (there's no time afterall!)
The odd thing with me is that I'm slowly getting tired of always having to be online or having to use some kind of device to communicate with people. Sometimes it's necessary, but sitting down with someone and communicating with them on a face-to-face basis has a more 3 dimensional (even 4 dimensional) aspect to it. You not just hearing sound coming over the phone or reading text, you're also getting to interpret other data ... hmm ... now I'm talking like a machine. 8P